I am all for challenge, but this is not working as well as I hoped

[MrT]

My love for this game is abating.

Exactly one week ago, I made the decision to play at Mc/Mc to use a stimp around 10-11. Of course, my scores from M/F or F/F to Mc/Mc worsened, but that does not worry me one bit. I kept it to myself and kept playing even 4-5 games a day as I have a period off-work. I got some good scores and I am quite proud of my Even at Pebble Beach, for instance. But then I played some easier courses and many greens are sloped, and the last game at Bullybanion was a piece of crap. I was basically playing Even and -1 until I got to one green that was totally unsuitable for Mc/Mc. It started with the approach: I made sure that I do not hit the green or the ball would have gone through the green. Still, it did it anyway (looked at the replay and it was not even a straight trajectory and the ball took twists and turns). Still I was probably about 5 meters from the hole. Just looking at the putt with the hole on a big slope and the gradient increasing just below the hole was enough to know that either I was going to hole it or the ball was going down and end up on the fringe. I did not miss by much but it went to the fringe. Just to try, I took a Mulligan and this time aimed 2 meters above the hole... same outcome.. ever so slowly the ball went downhill and once it was just past the hole it took a good acceleration and ended up on the fringe again. Score for the hole: +2 which was actually not that bad, although I needed 4 putts to hole it. 4 putts is a piece of shit and only beginners should take that many.

Some courses just were not meant to be played in these settings at all. Yes, several holes are ok, some maybe challenging but still acceptable, but there is always that hole or two where havoc happens despite all the care and attention. I wonder what contorted mind puts holes on slopes like that, frankly. I suppose that as long as one stays below Mc/Mc or avoids the "c" conditions, those holes are fair. I am not sure actually, but maybe. Just sending the ball from one side of the green to the other is not fun.It feels ridiculous and it is not enjoyable as the control of the game is taken away from the player.

It has become clear to me that a few courses are supportive of the "c" conditions because they are designed with realism in mind. However, some clearly not. It would require a huge investment of time to find out for each course which holes require special attention in placing the holes. Basically, I would spend my spare time going through courses and courses, hole by hole in practice mode with all flags showing to identify which hole positions are "absolutely no-no" for the Mc/Mc conditions and above. Augusta is challenging, but I never had the balls running away from me so bad as on a few holes on much less glamorous courses. And I was playing with the same respect for the course as I use for Augusta or Oakmont, etc.

At this point, I am not going back to the non-"c" conditions any more. The step was taken and there is no going back for me. The stimp will be 10 or higher. I am still able to send in some chips and I still can stop 95% of chips near the holes. But some putts there is simply no way to make them work. Yesterday, in practice mode I took over 20 putts on certain holes and the outcome ranged from bad to abominable 19 out of 20 times and miserable on 1/20. So much so that I ran out of strategies! Too many courses have "contorted greens" but they are not the good type of complications like at Oakmont. At Oakmont in Mc/Mc I can stop the balls, I may not be able to read the line properly, but I can put the ball near the hole and stop it. Same at Augusta, etc. But in too many courses that is just not the case. Is it inexperience? Maybe, but I played this game for 1 year and I am a quick learner and adapt very fast. So, as far as I am concerned, I blame some holes on many courses as ruining the Mc/Mc experience. If I were a member of such G.C.'s, I would honestly cancel my membership and throw again my golf clubs in the dumpster as I did many years ago. But that was not because of the greens.

I do not know. Since I switched to the "c"-conditions, I found myself enjoying the game less. It is not about the score. The first day I played at +5-+10.. yesterday I played -3 to +1.. so I am learning and adapting, even in just one week. But the "comical" holes are really playing havoc with my enjoyment of the game. And I am not sure I know how to eliminate those situations, short of avoiding certain hole placements which requires a huge investment of time. I assume that I could start one by one and save them in the tournament/career one by one to retain the selected holes.But that seems a bit extreme. Or writing down course by course what holes are too sloped and require special selections.

Still the greatest game out there, if one asks me, but sometimes there is too much of a good thing. Challenging settings require too much work to place the holes. Holes are to be on flat spots at least for a radius of 1 foot and as even as possible as required for reputable golf courses. When the holes themselves are on a sloped terrain, above a certain setting, the balls become unstoppable and the outcomes farcical and laughable.

[Adelade]

You describe so well why it is worth it for designers to pay that little extra attention to pin positions instead of just blopping them in wherever in a hasty fashion, or just taking the overhead view into account, which is sadly what a lot of designers have done over the years. Well written

To be fair it is pretty difficult to estimate whether a spot is fair for a pin or not within APCD alone, there are no good tools for designers to see how steep slopes are without saving the course and then going into Links and checking pins out, and then even when you identify a bad pin or spot it is kind of a headache to go back in APCD and know exactly where to move it to (not to mention that Links and APCD have different pin numbering systems for some dumb reason so you have to be a little careful in identifying which pins are which too) and so all that takes a lot of time to do for all pins on all holes, so its not so surprising that many designers have at least occasional pins ending up on poor spots. But I sure do wish more designers over the years would have at least avoided putting pins on the worst slopes, which shouldnt be too much to ask for. Some courses/designers do it much better than others, especially the older courses back when less players had swapped over to challenging conditions can be really frustrating without the right pins.

Did you see my post about custom pin collections? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1184 If you use the resources there you wont have to go looking for the good pins yourself for most courses, I cant make promises for the LSPN thread ones but hopefully most of them are at least decent and there are loads of them. I also suggest using slightly slower speeds such as Mc/Sc on older courses - but it depends a lot on who the designer is.

[MrT]

You describe so well why it is worth it for designers to pay that little extra attention to pin positions instead of just blopping them in wherever in a hasty fashion, ................................

Did you see my post about custom pin collections? viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1184 If you use the resources there you wont have to go looking for the good pins yourself for most courses, I cant make promises for the LSPN thread ones but hopefully most of them are at least decent and there are loads of them. I also suggest using slightly slower speeds such as Mc/Sc on older courses - but it depends a lot on who the designer is.

Yes, Adelade, I did actually save that Excel file you provided and I plan to use it. Thank you for it. I am a glutton for realism. It is not by chance that my main hobby right now happens to be historical miniatures and that I ask artists to modify miniatures for me so that they are historically as accurate as possible. So, after your post were you explained to us the stimp levels and how the courses at major tournaments are really fast, I wanted that, i.e. to experience the feelings of a major golf tournament even in a game. I am willing to put the time into getting good playing with the "c"-settings, because it feels more realistic and more alike what I see or even experience on the real golf course (although I was not a pro!). But when you encounter the 1-2 odd holes on nearly every course, there is really nothing one can do if the cup is placed in the wrong spot. No amount of skill or care can remedy that.

The game, as I wrote, remains great, but there should be more attention for cup placements, at least as much as the attention course designers put in their courses and in that sense they do fantastic jobs. I get it that if they were to be this careful, then courses in the non "c"-settings would become too easy perhaps. But, I think that when a course is too easy, motivated players would increase the difficulty settings on their own. Or else, they just do not care, but I believe that this game caters mostly to those who actually do care.

While I am no golf authority, I recall that when playing on US courses, greens tend to be smallish and they have these "ondulations" added to them. But playing in Europe I found much more extensive greens and they do not need very uneven greens to make putting challenging. And I think of St. Andrews, for instance, where being on the green is not saying much, not if one is still 25-30 meters from the cups.. Still putting cups on sloped sections should be avoided at all costs. I have identified at least 4-5 holes in just one week (on several courses) that are 100% unacceptable and I am sure there are many more I will find out as I go through courses. And need to think how to remedy the situation. Your file will definitely be put to use.

It is just that moving to the "c"-settings is not going to be like a walk in the park. I planned for the need to have a learning curve, but I was not ready for having to "correct" the courses

[doclawler]

There are indeed some courses, and even some designers, that should be avoided at all costs if you're looking for anything remotely realistic. And it's a shame too, because some of my favorite real world courses have Links incarnations that are in no way, shape, or form realistic, and usually contain pin locations that make them flat out unplayable at all. It is what it is though. I've tried to tinker around in APCD enough to realize that what these guys are doing is extremely difficult, and it's their creation, not mine. If their style or artistic choices don't match what I would look for, I just move on and try something else.

I have recently been playing Glenn Braden's courses, as he mostly uses real green contours and most pin locations are completely playable at all speeds. One or two of the courses have load times that are a little long on my machine for some reason (Innisbrook for instance, which is a fantastic course by the way), and a few of them are just not my style as far as real courses go (Firestone has never really appealed to me), but the courses are fun and believably realistic. I suggest giving one of his courses a try before giving up on the challenging settings.

Also, I made a post a few months back with a listing of courses with 'real' greens, at least at that time. Not sure if there have been any others released that I've missed. Also, I think there are several designers working on courses that will potentially include accurate greens.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=794&p=7308#p7308

[MrT]

BallyBunion_Green2.jpg (156.67 KiB) Viewed 6765 times

BallyBunion Old course. Green for Hole # 2. Nightmare from almost any position. I originally got to putt from below cup 0. Deliberately played it short.. and it rolled back past the point where I hit it, by at least 1 meter! Then I hit the ball a bit harder and it went past the hole before veering to the right and coming to rest on the fringe. Now I am going to chip. Need to aim at least 1 meter above the cup and hope that it does not roll down too much.

This is a clear example why some holes are not really suitable for "c"-conditions. BallyBunion Old Course has several. I enjoyed this course in non-"c" settings for many games. But once I decided to play it using Mc/Mc or higher (here I played in Mc/Fc!) this course makes no sense and it becomes a pure minigolf experience, at least from the moment one has to putt.

It is also quite evident from this picture that there are hardly any cup placements that would make this hole less punishing. Yes, Mc/Fc is a very tough setting, but I played this at Augusta and there, if I played it well, things did work. Not so here. The only safe strategy is to hole from the fairway so one does not need to use the putter. A bit reminiscent of Happy Gilmore!

[MrT]

I have recently been playing Glenn Braden's courses, as he mostly uses real green contours and most pin locations are completely playable at all speeds. One or two of the courses have load times that are a little long on my machine for some reason (Innisbrook for instance, which is a fantastic course by the way), and a few of them are just not my style as far as real courses go (Firestone has never really appealed to me), but the courses are fun and believably realistic. I suggest giving one of his courses a try before giving up on the challenging settings.

I played Braden's courses. And I agree. So far I had played only in non -"c" conditions. Once I reached scores like -9 or -10 several times, I decided that it was time to play with the "c" settings. And that is when I was surprised by how many courses have holes that make them not suitable for the "c"-conditions.

https://golftips.golfweek.usatoday.com/ ... 20540.html

From PGA:
Rule 15-3, the most important factor when deciding where to place a hole is “good judgment in deciding what will give fair results.” The USGA also admonishes tournament officials not to be "tricky" when choosing hole locations. Toward those objectives, Rule 15-3 advises officials to examine the green’s design and to consider the type of approach shot required. Officials should consider the length of the likely approach shot and should allow sufficient putting distance around the hole. For example, the hole will typically be placed farther from the edge of the green when the expected approach shot requires a long iron rather than a more lofted club, according to PGA official Mickey Bradley. Weather conditions also are factored in. For example, greens will hold an approach better when they’re wet. More specifically, Rule 15-3(ii) recommends that holes should be placed "at least four paces from any edge of the putting green," and even farther if there's a sand trap near the edge or if the area surrounding the green's edge slopes downward.

[doclawler]

Regarding your posting about Ballybunion, the designer of that course has several other courses that I've tried to play and run into severe issues. Royal County Down, Portrush, Royal St George's just to name a few that are fantastic real world courses that are unfortunately nearly unplayable in Links under the conditions that I play. But, like I said, to each his own, and judging by the other comments on the forum there are plenty of others who enjoy these courses, so I will gladly accept that I'm the one who should change my expectations.

[pmgolf]

BallyBunion_Green2.jpg

BallyBunion Old course. Green for Hole # 2. Nightmare from almost any position. I originally got to putt from below cup 0. Deliberately played it short.. and it rolled back past the point where I hit it, by at least 1 meter! Then I hit the ball a bit harder and it went past the hole before veering to the right and coming to rest on the fringe. Now I am going to chip. Need to aim at least 1 meter above the cup and hope that it does not roll down too much.

This is a clear example why some holes are not really suitable for "c"-conditions. BallyBunion Old Course has several. I enjoyed this course in non-"c" settings for many games. But once I decided to play it using Mc/Mc or higher (here I played in Mc/Fc!) this course makes no sense and it becomes a pure minigolf experience, at least from the moment one has to putt.

It is also quite evident from this picture that there are hardly any cup placements that would make this hole less punishing. Yes, Mc/Fc is a very tough setting, but I played this at Augusta and there, if I played it well, things did work. Not so here. The only safe strategy is to hole from the fairway so one does not need to use the putter. A bit reminiscent of Happy Gilmore!

Just because Ballybunion is a great course doesn't mean the designer, John Brooks, is a great designer. I'm sure he's a nice enough fellow, but I don't really like his courses. He says his designs are his impressions of them - apparently not an attempt at recreating them. There are many, many really good designers, but there are some not-so-good designers, too. Read this document from 2013. It reviews and rates courses and also rates designers. People have relied on information like this for years.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/39jy6c2mtmqiz ... 2.pdf?dl=0

Pete

[MrT]

Just because Ballybunion is a great course doesn't mean the designer, John Brooks, is a great designer. I'm sure he's a nice enough fellow, but I don't really like his courses. He says his designs are his impressions of them - apparently not an attempt at recreating them. There are many, many really good designers, but there are some not-so-good designers, too. Read this document from 2013. It reviews and rates courses and also rates designers. People have relied on information like this for years.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/39jy6c2mtmqiz ... 2.pdf?dl=0

Pete

Thank you Pete.. I will definitely look at the materials you linked. I tend to take a more agnostic view of the designers. I just play whatever they throw at me, being aware that some courses are not realistic. But, when I moved to Mc/Mc or above, the outcomes can be farcical. It is good to laugh at a hole that came out "funny" every now and then, but not when the issue is more systematic. As long as I avoided the "c"-conditions, I had courses I did well and course I did less well. And a couple that just are a nightmare to me personally. But, since I started to play in challenging conditions, I am at risk of losing many courses as they have, maybe just 2-3 nasty holes, that cannot be considered realistic.

My "nice place" courses are Cabo del Sol where I really can relax.. Let's see how it works in Mc/Mc or above. If I lost the ability to play that course, i would honestly cry.

And TPC Sawgrass.. that is my favorite technical course. If I lost that course, the disappointment would kill me. I have not played those for fear to find out the hard truth.

I guess I will have to make an effort and position every hole myself avoiding pin placements that are truly impossible and unrealistic. BallyBunion is really on a category of its own in that sense. On several holes 75-100% of pins are in bad spots. And I am sure it is not alone.

[pmgolf]

I give up, MrT. All these things you are discovering have already been discovered during the past 5 to 10 years. You apparently want to start from scratch. No sense me spending my time on you. Good luck!

Pete