Perplexed about the behavior of certain settings [SOLVED]

[MrT]

Following the useful thread of Stimp-meter and speed of greens, I decided to start playing again from scratch.
I had reached a point where in non challenging settings I could play on average -4 and had several -9 and -10 scores. I always play with difficult pin positions, although I am not sure that really amounts to much in most courses. So, I told myself: let's start anew, pretend you just made it to the pro circuit.

Thus, I set myself up in Mc/Mc which, according to Adelade's table should provide an actual stimp of 10. I played some courses I go to for fun, say Whirpool, Adam's Tree, Gardaland (I was born near there)... Well the experience was humbling as, while I played well putting the balls reasonably close to the holes on the greens, the putts were not going in. I could still play around Even, except that there is always the odd hole where the hole is set on a slope and the ball, no matter how soft I touched it, kept going and going and going. Even chipping was a nightmare and even hitting the balls really soft they kept going ... forever until they reach the fringe or close to it, many yards from the hole. I must say that I was disappointed.

So, I told myself: since you are starting anew, let's go where it hurts and learn to play there. And here we go to Augusta. Set myself up to Mc/Fc, difficult pin positions, gusty wind conditions. I am expecting to score +18. But, to my gigantic surprise, after 9 holes I was -2, the balls were stopping fine on greens, putting was not miserable.. and I was not even trying hard. In fact, I was playing and sipping my tea using the other hand.

So, what is going on? Again, according to Adelade's table, we should be talking about an actual stimp of 14.4, faster than the actual stimp in the US Master's, but I was actually able to play much easier than on Whirlpool, Adam's Tree and Gardaland. Maybe the second set of 9 holes at Augusta would have destroyed me, but still. Even chipping worked very well. Balls were running, but not like on a pool table.

I am truly confused. Did the game fail to register the settings properly? It should have been the kingdom of shots going sour, but not even one went really bad, although one green was super ondulated and I got lucky to get past the major ondulations and the ball stopped close to the hole enough to putt it in.

I am aware that some course are truly not suitable for challenging settings: simply put, some holes are "wrong" and would have failed the USGA requirement that "at least a 2-foot radius surrounding the hole “should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade.” I went back in Practice mode on those few holes and hardly anything could stop the balls from running down the slopes even in Mc/Mc. However, being able to play like I did in Augusta, had me scratching my head.

[Adelade]

Some people play Fc/Fc and are able to stop the ball reasonably close even if hole locations are on gentle to - so to speak - "borderline illegal" slopes, so its not that it is impossible, its just extremely difficult to do so (at least consistently) without having a good amount of experience of how hard you need to hit the putts on those speeds. You also need to really be defensive enough, not trying to take sideways-break out of the equation by hitting it hard, and instead accept a tougher trajectory at basically minimum speed.

I dont know, but I would theorize that your odd experience of Mc/Fc feeling easier could be down to coincidence for just that round, perhaps you ended up below the hole a lot of the time compared to the previous rounds? Because if putting uphill most of the time, even "illegal" hole locations can many times feel quite fine and fair, and then next time if you end up on the side for slightly downhill and fully sideslope, its a whole different story - it does make for a huge difference. Even if the hole locations were fair, the same argument could be applied to difficult speeds that one isnt used to. Also, maybe you simply putted really well - if you hit putts perfectly, they'll go in to any unfair or difficult hole location too on whatever speed. Not sure if either of those things were what actually went on for you, but I recommend giving it an additional test.

I dont think there is any chance that the game didnt register the correct settings as long a you selected them correctly.

Sidenote - with chipping (and approach shots), if you hit from the rough or deep rough balls WILL have a much, much harder time stopping, even after they've stopped bouncing and started rolling.

[MrT]

...................
Sidenote - with chipping (and approach shots), if you hit from the rough or deep rough balls WILL have a much, much harder time stopping, even after they've stopped bouncing and started rolling.

That could be it. Truth be told I did not make the green every single time, but playing those first nine at Augusta, never went into the roughs around the greens.

[MrT]

Played more courses on Mc/Mc and Fc/Mc.. My impressions are confirmed. On a course like Pebble Beach 2004 I could score a -1 and at Doral I could score -3.. Playing other courses with very uneven greens all I could muster where +3, +6, +9. In particular, the +6 and +9 were byproducts of actually just 2 holes on each course. In fact in those instances I faced a choice: 1) play short of the hole and take two putts, or 2) go for the hole, but if you miss it even barely, the ball will go down at least 15-20 feet or, if you carry a bit of power than needed, even just a speck, you will end up on the fringe 40 feet away. Holes on sloped ground are a no-no with these type of settings. I think I go the jest: if one wants to play with this type of settings, he/she must check every single hole and choose a pin position that is suitable. Failing to do so makes the game into a lottery.

I am satisfied: when one wants as much realism as possible, there is a need to be realistic even about pin positions and take the time to check those, one by one.

[Still Linksing]

I don't think you can match the roll of a ball and also match the stopping ability of a ball down a slope in Links to what it would do IRL in those situations.
I've always felt you get more roll in Links down slopes than you do IRL.

Recently a thread was here about stimp numbers.
I use these numbers as a guide for the various green settings I may wish to select but not much more.
I don't try and match a real courses stimp because I feel the ball in Links has more roll and less stopping ability on any kind of slope in Links than it does in real life.

[Adelade]

I've always felt you get more roll in Links down slopes than you do IRL.

Interesting, I feel the exact opposite. I often play Mc/Mc and M/Fc and on the former the ball stops fairly often on slopes when coming from below, and on M/Fc the ball very barely starts lumbering down some slopes (without previous momentum to help it down that is), whereas when I played golf in real life I almost always did so on municipal courses in Sweden where I theorize that the stimps were probably commonly around 7-9 or even lower on rainy days (which are frequent in Sweden) (but who knows? Im just speculating), and I dont remember the ball ever stopping on slopes, even if coming from below it had no problem turning around and coming back down. Obviously depends on the severity of the slopes but I definitely feel like the gravity factor in Links is on the low side compared to roll friction on flatter ground.

Point taken though.

[...]

So have you decided where you're going from here? I think I've been rather enjoying following your journey of exploring the faster speeds now I wanna know how it ends (if it ever does end, my own journey with the different speeds is still ongoing after all)

[Still Linksing]

Interesting, I feel the exact opposite.

Just a feeling ever since the mod speeds came into the game, could be totally wrong.

[Kunkleman]

Having played probably a hundred or so different courses in real life, I have found only a couple of them that played like the challenging speeds. So if you are looking for realism, that's not the normal for most people. Few of we linksters are pro golfers.

[pmgolf]

Interesting, I feel the exact opposite.

Just a feeling ever since the mod speeds came into the game, could be totally wrong.

I've been consumed by real-life golf for right at 50 years now, playing the more inexpensive local courses at first, but moving up to a private club that hosted the Senior Tour during that span. I still play two or more rounds a week at age 75. I find the original Links green speeds to be quite slow - especially so at the moderate and slow speeds. Moderate / Fast challenging is a bit slower than the better club-level courses, but something closer to Firm / Fast challenging would be about right. For the faster speeds, like the ones that PGA pros and NCAA athletes face, it's hard to make comparisons, because those golfers are smart enough and skilled enough to position their ball below the hole. On those occasions that they wind up above the hole you see them running their first putt 10 to 15 feet by the hole if they don't lag the putt - and those golfers have a putting touch honed by thousands of hours of practice!

Pete

[Adelade]

Having played probably a hundred or so different courses in real life, I have found only a couple of them that played like the challenging speeds. So if you are looking for realism, that's not the normal for most people. Few of we linksters are pro golfers.

True, however I think its fairly common among Linksters to want to simulate what is realistic for pro play tour golf.