Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Share your designing tips with other Designer's. Find answers to your problems using the APCD.
User avatar
Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Adelade »

For the past few days I've started learning Seam Blends, I spent a lot of time studying all the guides and stuff available that even remotely touched the subject, testing out methods and stuff myself and felt really confident I had it all down and was ready to start Seam Blending my course. Turns out, Seam Blends are even trickier and troublesome than I imagined! Im running into a lot of "Could not analyse selected geometry. Path mapping calculation failed." errors, as well as areas that are difficult to seam blend without making multiple and sometimes intersecting extrusions. Most of these issues are because my course is laid out with a lot of texture seams meeting in 3 way intersections such as the examples in the picture attached below, and also the fact that some of the seam blends I'm trying to figure out first are very large areas calling for very long stretching extrusion borders and seam blends.

Now, I suspect that some of you are going to say "just dont use extrusions for seam blends", since I think I've seen a lot of current designers plot out horizontal areas dedicated for seam blends from the beginning. Well, while yes, I now certainly can see why that could be a good idea that might save a lot of headache, that is not a solution for me in this case as my course is already plotted out and I'd rather truck on with my current slow methods with mainly extrusion-style seam blends, than completely restructure absolutely everything. I have been figuring out workarounds here and there for the issues I've ran into so far and think I've come up with a system that will get me through it all eventually, but Im wondering if any of you might know of any better methods or tips that could save a lot of time, in particular possibly some proper method of making really clean 3-way-intersection seam blends like the examples in the picture below. At least I thought it'd be stupid of me not to throw the question out here and see.

SBexamps.jpg
SBexamps.jpg (435.62 KiB) Viewed 5398 times
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
User avatar
Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Adelade »

Hm I just figured out you can use one same path mapping for several different seam blends (multiple-type mappings), that seems like it should eliminate most if not all of the path mapping calculation errors I had at least.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
User avatar
Danny D
Posts: 1107
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 1:09 am
Location: SE Missouri

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends PART 1

Post by Danny D »

Hi Adelade. This reply is only going to speak on path mapping. You must first create a successful path mapping before you can complete a seam blend. Look it over before you go any further so you fully understand what you're up against as you continue.

Here's s few pointers that may help you to work out why you get the "Could not analyze" error. There are very specific rules regarding how a SB must begin and end. Keep in mind, its the PATH mapping that gives you the "Could not analyze" error. Not the multiple. So I'll only be referencing path mappings here.

Do not misunderstand me. I'm not telling you this is the way it HAS to be done without exception. I'm telling you a rule-of-thumb method that will help you avoid problems to start with.

I'll first talk about the non-ending SB. Like one that circles a tee box or a green or a fairway, for example.

The END CAPS are what you must keep straight. Try to keep your cross bars square with the sides as reasonably as possible. Avoid making them cross the path at weird angles. There is a beginning & ending somewhere in that circle so try to keep the cross bars square.

On a PATH that doesn't connect to itself, the MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR above all others is how you create the ends of the SB PATH. The outer ends must be as perfectly square as possible, and cannot contain more than 2 verts running long-ways. 1-the left side of the SB. 2- the right side of the SB. There cannot be any verts in between the right and left sides of the end caps. As you move down the SB from the end caps, you can spread it out and use more verts between the inner and outer side verts that run long-ways, as long as you assign all of the texture between the inner and outer SB to the SB programming. (the paths & multiples)

THE END CAP RULES.
The ends MUST be as square as possible and contain what I will call a "single cross bar". Using a crooked cross vert where the SB block ends will give you the "can't analyze" error. Try to keep the outer ends of the blocks as square and uniform as possible at the beginning and end of the SB. You can experiment for yourself on how far apart the cross verts can be on the end blocks. I've used many different widths and lengths on the end blocks. They can be rectangular, but the cross verts need to be as square as possible.

So to state it as simply as possible, the ends of a SB must be made up of a single square or rectangular box that has a perfectly square single end vert on it. The rest of the SB that resides between the 2 end blocks can be almost any shape or size.

Here are some good & bad examples. A picture without the error in it is a successful path. The ones with the error would not analyze. Compare the end caps to see the difference...

Dan
Attachments
SB6.jpg
SB6.jpg (125.61 KiB) Viewed 5384 times
SB3.jpg
SB3.jpg (122.86 KiB) Viewed 5384 times
SB1.jpg
SB1.jpg (154.6 KiB) Viewed 5384 times
SB5.jpg
SB5.jpg (181.42 KiB) Viewed 5385 times
SB4.jpg
SB4.jpg (270.1 KiB) Viewed 5385 times
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
Ian Wells
Posts: 561
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 3:02 am

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Ian Wells »

Adelade,
I would just like to add one other point with the seam blend method Danny explained. If there are acute changes in direction it is necessary to add Verts at that location, see attached.

Ian
Attachments
seamblend.jpg
seamblend.jpg (219.21 KiB) Viewed 5377 times
User avatar
Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Adelade »

I see, makes sense, I suspected a lot of these things from own experimenting but wasnt 100% sure about the exact details so it feels extremely good to have it laid out like this! Very much appreciated! My main problem was actually that I extruded an area, then divided that one extrusion into several path mappings, one for each seam blend, but I realized that if i made just one single path mapping for the whole extrusion it seems to eliminate all the fiddling I previously had to do with verts to get all the separate path mappings to calculate. I can still have several different seam blends for the one extrusion and one path map when using several multiples but only one path mapping. Circle paths are just easier for APCD to work is the main takeaway I suppose. The tricky 3-way-intersection blends still remain an issue but Im getting them done to an acceptable degree with some fiddling, and I realize there may be no 100% solution to it other than avoiding having them in the first place. Again thanks for replies! :cheers1:
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
User avatar
Danny D
Posts: 1107
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 1:09 am
Location: SE Missouri

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Danny D »

Adelade wrote: December 15th, 2019, 1:57 pmThe tricky 3-way-intersection blends still remain an issue but Im getting them done to an acceptable degree with some fiddling, and I realize there may be no 100% solution to it other than avoiding having them in the first place. Again thanks for replies! :cheers1:
Exactly! You can make them look decent, but as you suspected, it does take a lot of "fiddling". Let me add one more thing that I do. I'm not saying it's the way it should be done, but I've done it many times and got away with it.

Once you have made a successful path, you can actually adjust the END CAPS to any kind of an angle that you want. Just be aware, that once you make an odd angle at the end, if you do anything later that messes up the path mapping and you need to "recalculate" to fix it, you will need to make those ends square again to get it to recalculate properly, and then adjust them back to where they were.

Dan :cheers1:
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
User avatar
Adelade
Posts: 1346
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 10:24 am

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Adelade »

Yea, I deliberately created this mess yesterday for example to try get it to look as good as possible :laugh:

Mess.jpg
Mess.jpg (713.89 KiB) Viewed 5332 times
I like things clean, neat and methodical so It didnt feel right or good at all! But I couldnt find any unnatural elevations or lies so it seemed ok enough. However today I came up with a better method for X+Fairway+Fringe 3-way-intersects that at least works really good with the textures Im using, so Im about to destroy that mess and remake it right now.

My new method is basically that I make one branch of a 3-way-intersect (the fairway-fringe border) not be seamblended quite all the way up to touch the other ones, and leaving a tiny bit without seamblend. This may only produce good results if two of the textures have a similar look and/or fairly sharp seamblend between them to begin with, not sure yet. Fairway and Fringe textures often meet both those requirements.
Finished Courses - Main: Amedal (fictional), Nine Bridges (real)
Other: Austin, Sheshan, Kauri Cliffs, Le Golf Nat. Updates: Whirlpool, Royal Lytham, Royal St George's, Chicago, Chambers Bay, Munchen Nord E
Working on: 2 fictional courses + a couple things...
brooks2345
Posts: 120
Joined: September 17th, 2019, 5:24 pm

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by brooks2345 »

My advice is simple. If you have any kind of seam blend check your number of edges. The total must always be an even number. If the number of edges is an odd number (like those that failed above) you have a problem. I personally shy away from 3-way blends such as bunker/rough/fairway - these are just asking for trouble!

Cheers

John Brooks
User avatar
Brandywine
Posts: 17
Joined: October 30th, 2019, 10:21 pm
Location: Washington, D.C., USA

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Brandywine »

Just curious, is there another means beside using extrusion method for producing seem blends? This is vexing me as well. :wallbash:
If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch! ~ Kev
User avatar
Danny D
Posts: 1107
Joined: August 27th, 2019, 1:09 am
Location: SE Missouri

Re: Seeking advice for Seam Blends

Post by Danny D »

Brandywine wrote: December 23rd, 2019, 7:55 pm Just curious, is there another means beside using extrusion method for producing seem blends? This is vexing me as well. :wallbash:
Hi Brandywine...

Yes, a very simple method. You can create your own seam blend paths by using the terrain painter. All you need is a narrow strip of textures the shape of the seam blend. If this doesn't make sense to you, I can go into more detail.

The method Lez explains in his video is to create a SB by using the extrusion method. All he is really doing is creating a SB path that is vertical instead of flat. I find it much easier to create a flat SB that you can see when viewing from the top. (see the attached picture) IMO, it's easier to work with them like this. Mine look like this attached picture.

You can create paths like mine in a couple of ways. Remember, a SB is made up of 3 functions.
Function 1 is to create a narrow strip of texture between the textures you want blended together,
Function 2 is to apply a SB texture in that narrow strip, and program that strip as a "PATH".
Function 3 is to program that same path with a "MULTIPLE". You must first create the PATH, because it will be needed to program the MULTIPLE.

There are 2 methods of creating this narrow path.
1: Use the terrain painter tool to manually add another row of edges right next to the existing edge where you want to place your SB.
2: Use the extrusion tool to create the SB patch

EXTRUDING
When you select (highlight) a group of faces, such as a tee box for example, and click on them using the extrude tool, the tool adds a layer of edges on top of the existing edges that surround your highlighted group of faces. If you select the MOVE tool, and lift those highlighted faces upward, you will see a new row of unpainted faces that are facing sideways (vertical) around the entire extruded area. Using Les' method, you can highlight all of those vertical faces and program them as a path and a multiple, and then, using the move tool again, you lower them back down to where they almost touch the row of edges beneath them.

NOTES ABOUT THAT: If you lower a vertical path too far, it will squeeze the path closed and mess it up. If you don't lower them enough, it will leave a ridge on the ground that can deflect a golf ball sideways, should the ball happen to land directly on that ridge edge. My flat paths don't have that problem because the path edges are flat and spread out, and clearly visible from the top, unlike a vertical SB path.
Keep in mind, when you use the extrude tool, you only have to click on top of the highlighted area to make it create the extra layer of edges. You DO NOT have to lift them. At this point you can choose to separate the extruded edges by either lifting them, lowering them, or spreading them apart sideways.

MY METHOD (spreading them apart sideways.)
Using my method, after you use the EXTRUDE TOOL to create the extra layer of edges, instead of lifting them upwards, you pull them sideways to spread them out a little bit. So instead of lifting and making a vertical wall, you are instead sliding them over and making a flat wall to place your SB in. Doing it like that allows you to always be able to clearly see your seam blends from any angle and won't leave you with a little ridge around one that is extruded and lifted. I much prefer this method over the vertical seam blends.

Hope that made sense. If not, I can go over it in more detail if you need.

Dan

You are looking at 2 seam blends in this picture. Here's what you see going from left to right from the green to the rough

GREEN - SB from green to fringe - FRINGE - SB from fringe to rough - ROUGH
Attachments
SB.jpg
SB.jpg (258.88 KiB) Viewed 5244 times
Completed Courses
Real Courses: The National Golf Club of Kansas City - Wakonda Club - Coeur d'Alene Resort Course
Fictitious Courses: Northern Lakes - Golfcom Tees
Southern Oaks - Hometown 9 hole real course with a fictitious back 9 added
Post Reply