Old courses that need Updating

Announce and discuss forthcoming and recent course releases or request beta help from members.
Pinseeker444
Posts: 4
Joined: May 6th, 2021, 1:26 am

Old courses that need Updating

Post by Pinseeker444 »

Hi!

There are three courses that host PGA Tournaments every year that really need to be updated:

1. Pebble Beach Golf Links - not changed since 6/9/2005

2. Riviera C.C. - last version 2006

3. TPC Scottsdale - not updated since 2004

In addition, two courses that are still 2003 originals are holding tournaments this year: Southern Hills and The Country Club.

Pete
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Jimbo
Posts: 1504
Joined: August 29th, 2019, 3:55 am
Location: Victoria-but a Raven at heart!

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by Jimbo »

Is there any way to make the 16th at Scottsdale a real "arena" hole with crazy crowd sound effect.
Another course that's awaiting it's final release is Hamilton. I nit picked it for Sage (clubhouse improvement😉) but I think he passed it on.
I know that it's Canadian 😉 but it''s almost ready to go-and I don't think that the Beta was ever released. It's on the Canadian Open rotation.
gene_golf
Posts: 267
Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by gene_golf »

[quote=Jimbo post_id=11615 time=1630911403 user_id=192]
Is there any way to make the 16th at Scottsdale a real "arena" hole with crazy crowd sound effect.
[/quote]

Jimbo, Regarding TPC Scottsdale---Glenn has all but said the 16th hole will be done by him to symbolize the atmosphere that is thought about when the Waste Management tournament is played each year. Other than sound effect, he has pretty much said everything else that would apply.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1276
by braden1308 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:34 am
grandstands.jpg
(169.71 KiB) Downloaded 187 times

Here in this thread above:
by braden1308 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:56 pm
Scottsdale should be ready later this year, new version, not an update. Southern Hills was something I always wanted to do also but there are a lot of courses on my plate right now
Glenn

Regarding courses that have been done already in Links needing updates. I would say Quail Hollow as well as Medinah notably have been left off. Quail Hollow hosts Wells Fargo each year and in 2022 will host the President's Cup. Medinah hosted the 2019 BMW and in 2026 will host the President's Cup. Quail Hollow has had several holes changed on front side. Medinah for bland hole #15 added a lake to right of green and made this a possibly driveable par 4. In addition for hole #17 where the green was at when Tiger won the PGA in 1999 at the top of the hill as shown in old Links design---it has been changed to once again being over lake as was once previously, but this time not straight ahead instead angled to right somewhat.

Of courses mentioned Southern Hills has not seen significant changes to course and even though Ross McKenzie's version done in 2003 with APCD 1.1 or 2001 version of APCD besides a couple of seam blend issues it seems to typify look and playability of Southern Hills. I did see that version put out is not locked, so if some designer such as Sage might have interest---then this could be a time saver using old course as template to change a few things as Adelade did behind John Brooks for Royal St. Georges recently. Also Chuck Clark did a credible job with Pebble Beach and have seen where he made effort to get the greens as close to being accurate that read in other threads, Chuck Clark in addition with Pat Auge were designers of Riviera and like Pebble Beach has not seen any substantive real course changes. The greens at Riviera have not been signed off as being entirely accurate. Such an endeavor could be undertaken by say Glenn Braden, who to my knowledge has done this for more real courses than any other Links designer for about a dozen of his courses put out. I see that have left out mentioning The Country Club-Brookline done by Eddie Schmidt. It hosts next year's US Open, but other than a Walker Cup in 2013 have to go back to memorable Ryder Cup in 1999 that can remember seeing it on tv hosting a tournament. Not sure if substantive changes have been done to that real course making it look and play different than version have in Links. That leads to subject of accurate greens and for that alone---older real courses that are in spotlight of hosting majors should have this done, also real courses designed early on in Links that yearly host tournaments should also have this done. Glenn helped Doug Hurst with PGA National, but as check that was done back in 2016 and that course is still listed as a beta.
bostonlefty
Posts: 36
Joined: January 19th, 2020, 3:55 am

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by bostonlefty »

The Country Club will have changes.

The biggest change: The 4th hole is being dropped and a 100 yd par 3 from their 9 hole course is being added. Not 100% sure on the routing, but I think the new par 3 will be the 9th.

Also I'm fairly sure the 13th will be now a par 5 and the 15th will be changed to a par 4

I've been looking online, but haven't seen an updated layout or scorecard.
gene_golf
Posts: 267
Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by gene_golf »

[quote=bostonlefty post_id=11626 time=1630949408 user_id=755]
The Country Club will have changes.

The biggest change: The 4th hole is being dropped and a 100 yd par 3 from their 9 hole course is being added. Not 100% sure on the routing, but I think the new par 3 will be the 9th.

Also I'm fairly sure the 13th will be now a par 5 and the 15th will be changed to a par 4

I've been looking online, but haven't seen an updated layout or scorecard.
[/quote]

I remember that this is a 36 hole complex and to get championship course a few holes from each nine are used as stated by site saying composite at end. Another course that does this from my understanding is Royal Melbourne using holes from east and west courses making for a composite championship course. Google Earth does not identify the holes being used or their pars and yardage. Blue Golf site lists hole #11 as a short par 3 that does not jive with what provisualizer shows better info. Provisualizer also can pull up the member's course not to be confused with this link showing 18 championship holes to be used. As can remember the oddity of hole #2 that it is used as a par 3 from what was a originally a par 4 as can be seen.
https://www.provisualizer.com/courses/t ... posite.php
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.314869, ... 3?hl=en-US

Only just saw that at bottom of provisualizer site given---that there is a Google Earth flyover of this course. Also there is Google Earth site at bottom of provisializer site---probably the same as given above, but goes to Adobe Acrobat reader that my computer refuses to open.
Last edited by gene_golf on September 7th, 2021, 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jimbo
Posts: 1504
Joined: August 29th, 2019, 3:55 am
Location: Victoria-but a Raven at heart!

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by Jimbo »

:clapping:
gene_golf wrote: September 6th, 2021, 1:55 pm
Jimbo wrote: September 6th, 2021, 7:56 am Is there any way to make the 16th at Scottsdale a real "arena" hole with crazy crowd sound effect.
Jimbo, Regarding TPC Scottsdale---Glenn has all but said the 16th hole will be done by him to symbolize the atmosphere that is thought about when the Waste Management tournament is played each year. Other than sound effect, he has pretty much said everything else that would apply.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1276
by braden1308 » Mon Aug 30, 2021 8:34 am
grandstands.jpg
(169.71 KiB) Downloaded 187 times

Here in this thread above:
by braden1308 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:56 pm
Scottsdale should be ready later this year, new version, not an update. Southern Hills was something I always wanted to do also but there are a lot of courses on my plate right now
Glenn

Regarding courses that have been done already in Links needing updates. I would say Quail Hollow as well as Medinah notably have been left off. Quail Hollow hosts Wells Fargo each year and in 2022 will host the President's Cup. Medinah hosted the 2019 BMW and in 2026 will host the President's Cup. Quail Hollow has had several holes changed on front side. Medinah for bland hole #15 added a lake to right of green and made this a possibly driveable par 4. In addition for hole #17 where the green was at when Tiger won the PGA in 1999 at the top of the hill as shown in old Links design---it has been changed to once again being over lake as was once previously, but this time not straight ahead instead angled to right somewhat.

Of courses mentioned Southern Hills has not seen significant changes to course and even though Ross McKenzie's version done in 2003 with APCD 1.1 or 2001 version of APCD besides a couple of seam blend issues it seems to typify look and playability of Southern Hills. I did see that version put out is not locked, so if some designer such as Sage might have interest---then this could be a time saver using old course as template to change a few things as Adelade did behind John Brooks for Royal St. Georges recently. Also Chuck Clark did a credible job with Pebble Beach and have seen where he made effort to get the greens as close to being accurate that read in other threads, Chuck Clark in addition with Pat Auge were designers of Riviera and like Pebble Beach has not seen any substantive real course changes. The greens at Riviera have not been signed off as being entirely accurate. Such an endeavor could be undertaken by say Glenn Braden, who to my knowledge has done this for more real courses than any other Links designer for about a dozen of his courses put out. I see that have left out mentioning The Country Club-Brookline done by Eddie Schmidt. It hosts next year's US Open, but other than a Walker Cup in 2013 have to go back to memorable Ryder Cup in 1999 that can remember seeing it on tv hosting a tournament. Not sure if substantive changes have been done to that real course making it look and play different than version have in Links. That leads to subject of accurate greens and for that alone---older real courses that are in spotlight of hosting majors should have this done, also real courses designed early on in Links that yearly host tournaments should also have this done. Glenn helped Doug Hurst with PGA National, but as check that was done back in 2016 and that course is still listed as a beta.
bostonlefty
Posts: 36
Joined: January 19th, 2020, 3:55 am

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by bostonlefty »

News story providing more details about upcoming US Open / Country Club

[/https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/10/28/ ... brookline/]


BL
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1PuttJeff
Posts: 109
Joined: January 7th, 2020, 12:26 am

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by 1PuttJeff »

This is an interesting topic because there are a lot of Links courses that could be updated, even some that are more obscure including; Apple Tree, White Mud Creek, Latrobe (Fall Version), Barton Creek, Talon Course at Grayhawk, and the excellent fictional course, Autumn Valley. :smile:
Last edited by 1PuttJeff on November 7th, 2021, 12:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
gene_golf
Posts: 267
Joined: August 28th, 2019, 1:30 pm

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by gene_golf »

[quote=bostonlefty post_id=12164 time=1635519414 user_id=755]
News story providing more details about upcoming US Open / Country Club
[/https://www.bostonglobe.com/2021/10/28/ ... brookline/]
BL
[/quote]

I can see where could take out hole #4 as is aligned halfway between holes #3 and #5 with short walk from the latter 2 holes. But to play old hole #10 as the new 9th hole and then play old #11 hole as the new #10 hole means afterwards passing new #11 hole's green walking back to tee and after playing the new hole retracing steps to go on to hole #12 that is the same being old and new #12 going on to finish holes as in past tournaments. Hole #12 on the member's course is actually between holes #9 and #10 for championship course as has been done. Not using hole #4 this new hole could just as easily have been hole #9, but par would then have been 34 for outgoing 9 and 36 for incoming 9 without the unnecessary walking. Playing recently I have seen so many 9 holes being par 37's just as an afterthought. Here is link to member's course in provisualizer and when punch up hole #12 you get to see unnecessary walk players will have to take, but then again there is possible big money to make, so what this is what will end up being.
https://www.provisualizer.com/2dplanner ... 9,,,,,&v=2
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Duck Hook
Posts: 396
Joined: August 26th, 2019, 10:49 pm
Location: Knee deep in Dust - Australia

Re: Old courses that need Updating

Post by Duck Hook »

Just on Royal Melbourne, the composite course has nothing to do with selecting the best 18 holes. It came about purely to ease tournament play by eliminating having to cross roads by confining the layout to the main area of land that the club facilities are built on.

:cheers1:
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